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(Possibly) Interesting Exchange on Another Forum re: Hippies

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Author Topic: (Possibly) Interesting Exchange on Another Forum re: Hippies  (Read 632 times)
Bad Penny
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« on: May 15, 2011, 06:19:09 am »

The genesis of this weird little piece lies in my continuing exploration of the secret state aspect of the Manson Family and the Hippie movement in general.  (And, as I've already posted, I'm aware of a connection between the Manson Family and the Untermeyer Park, Yonkers, NY satanic cult responsible for the Son of Sam killings running through Minot Air Force Base in Minot, North Dakota, using the liason network established by a long-defunct religious cult known as "The Process" (although I do not believe the cult to share any responsibility for the Manson or Son of Sam killings, as I believed that certain black operations piggy-backed on the liason networks established by the cult without their knowledge or assent).)

Here's the exchange (the author of each segment being noted within brackets):


I realize this may be off-topic, as the Manson Family clearly has no ties to any
Italians (save Vincent Bugliosi, who happens to be a major hero of mine), but,
as an adjunct to that, I'm trying to determine just what constitutes cultural
continuity, and, in this, the Sicilian Mafia and American Cosa Nostra serve as a
prototype which may disprove part of an adjunct theory (not necessary to my
essential point).

So, here it is: I'm currently trying to construct an argument to the effect that
Charles Manson was not, in fact, a serial killer but, rather, the leader of a
small organized crime syndicate. In doing this, I must prove he was not really
a hippie, but, rather, a career criminal who used the hippie movement as a
recruiting ground and cover for his criminal activities (easily done: I'm sure
everyone on this forum can figure that one out in their heads).

But I'm also delving into the history of the hippie movement, which most trace
back to Germany, with some being so bold as to specify the precise year of 1896.
Like the Italian criminal syndicates, the movement came to the US via
immigration of its participants (particularly to Southern California). Although
their movement didn't really take root among native-born Americans in Southern
California, there was a group of beatniks from the North Beach district of San
Francisco who, around 1960, observed this culture and became enthusiastic
advocates of its emulation amongst the North Beach beatniks. This precipitated
a split within the North Beach community, which resulted in those favoring
emulation of the Southern California German culture migrating away from North
Beach and taking over the moribund commercial core of the old working-class
neighborhood of Haight-Ashbury. The remaining North Beach beatniks referred to
the Haight-Ashbury beatniks as "hippies", which was a pejorative term for
beatnik wannabes who didn't really "get it".

The critical point related to my inquiry is that, although cultural continuity
between the Southern California German culture and the Haight-Ashbury hippie
culture is unambiguously attested, there is no evidence of any personnel
transfer between these two cultures, as opposed to the fact of the founders of
the American Mafia having originally been made back in Italy.

My key question is this: can I claim that the hippie culture is truly a
continuation of the Southern California German culture given the complete
absence of continuity or transfer of personnel from one culture to the other?


[Me again]

Re: Need Some Help Here!

My knowledge of the Wandervogel movement is increasing dramatically, and it
appears that the leaders of this movement were not quite as idealistic as their

It appears that one of the primary organizational tenants of the Wandervogel
movement, and one of its chief recruitment lures, involved acceptance and
glorification of homosexuality. (Mind you, I'm thoroughly of the opinion that
activity between consenting adults in the privacy of one's home is one's own
business, but the Wandervogel movement apparently went way beyond this concept.)
This makes no surprise of the fact that the leader of the North Beach hipsters
who latched on to the American version of Wandervogel culture was none other
than the openly gay Beat poet Alan Ginsberg. As homosexuality apparently didn't
have quite the drawing power in the US that it had in Germany, they substituted
the allure of the potential of "mind expansion" through the use of psycedelic
drugs in order to recruit members.

Still, it's an interesting question as to whether pure influence in the absence
of personnel continuity or transfer constitutes cultural continuity.



Re: [americanmafia] Re: Need Some Help Here!

Have you tried other forums?  Not sure if this is the right forum for that question.



Re: Need Some Help Here!


No, I'm not at all sure that this is the appropriate forum for this question.
I'm just trying to reach an audience with some degree of understanding of the
anthropological sciences, and I hope you'll take my posting this material on
this forum as a sign of my respect for your erudition, and not as an attempt to
waste your time.

If you can recommend another forum for this thread, I'll gladly go there.

Right now, I really don't know where else to turn.



Re: Need Some Help Here!

I'm going to call it. Seeing as the Wandervogel movement had to change, not
only its activities (psychedelic drugs as opposed to homosexuality), and
ideology (there was no inconsistency between being a Wandervogel and being a
Nazi (a la Ernst Roehm), whereas Naziism would have been abhorrent to American
hippies) in order to appeal to American youth, there is clearly a break in
continuity of influence between the two movements to mark them as separate.




I realize that this piece may be off-topic to the point that you may exclude it
from your forum, and, if you so decide, I'll certainly understand. I'm just
here trying to conclude my thread concerning the question of pure influence in
the absence of personnel continuity as evidence of continuity of a social
movement, in that there was no documented personnel transfer between the culture
of Southern California German-American farmers and the Northern California
native-born imitators of that culture. Nevertheless, said Norther California
imitators offered a few songs in homage to the Southern California farmers,
which I find quite touching.

The first song is Jefferson Airplane doing "High Flyin'Bird" with the amazing
Signe Toly Anderson (as opposed to that horrid witch who succeeded her) doing
the lead vocals:

The second is "Nature Boy" by Great Society, whose lead vocalist, unfortunately,
just happens to be the horrid witch who succeeded Signe as the lead singer of
Jefferson Airplane:

Any opinions???



Re: [americanmafia] Final Vicarious Salute to the "Wandervogel" Culture by Native-Born US Hippies

Looks like you have strong feelings about Grace Slick.  Have to admit that you are right about Signe Anderson being a far better singer.  Have to admire her for putting her child first.

As for your off-topic topic, I agree that there's no continuity in personnel from the early Bohemians to the Wandervogel to beatniks to hippies, but that's the train of influence.  There were also personalities who influenced the movement.  You could probably trace it back to the early British deists to the Kant and others to the French Revolution to the Romantics (Lord Byron, Mary Shelley, etc) to the Bohemians, etc. eventually to Allen Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac.  There's also a lot of influence from the Frankfurt School and New Left ideology.  Not necessarily a straight line as it zigs and zags.




Re: Final Vicarious Salute to the "Wandervogel" Culture by Native-Born US Hippies


Actually, the earliest parallel would be the ancient Greek philosophical school
under Diogenes known as the Cynics. During the early days of the Roman Empire,
two opposing youth movements came into existence: those who supported the
Empire, in which both the boys and the girls wore colorful, full-length robes
and long, loose hair, and lived a celebratory lifestyle, while those who opposed
the Empire in favor of restoring the Republic adopted a more reserved appearance
and lifestyle with the boys affecting a military appearance (high-and-tight
hair, short tunic), and the girls dressing like widows in mourning over the loss
of the Republic.

While the Imperialist youth appear to be a parallel with the hippies, the
Republicans would have, as their closest modern parallel, the Ron Paul/9-11
Truth crowd. It's interesting that, whenever Truthers gather, most are wearing
black t-shirts, somewhat reminiscent of the widow's weeds worn by Republican
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Jonnie Goodboy
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 09:37:51 am »

... This despite initial appearances for the younger generation, (oh gosh, I don't believe I'm saying that), is a very interesting post. I won't comment on it.

You see, I used to hang out with some of the peers of the Original Beatniks, who became totally alientated when S.F and L.A deteriorated into Hard-Drug abuse, and Hard-Crime around 1969. 

These Hard-Drugs were quite possibly pumped into the bay area by the same people who subsequently pursued a 20-year covert investigation of the same emmigrées once they had voluntarily packed up the wagons; - namely THE FBI?

 The 'beatnik' community planned an organised mass escape from this metaphorical 'Alcatraz'. By the early 1970's 'Hippy' was a very dirty name, and by the end of the decade you were a fool if you associated yourself with the handle.

They got out in 50+ self-owned bused and coaches, and this is partially what happened, for this one highly principled band of so-called 'hippies'.

'When the caravan returned to San Francisco, 6000 miles later, they couldn't find a large enough parking place to stay in community. After a week scattered about town, they packed up and headed back East, in search of some place where, as Stephen put it, "We can get it on with the dirt." After looking for land in Kentucky, Arkansas, and other sections of the central South, in 1971, the group finally found a place about 75 miles south of Nashville, on a remote wooded ridgetop where land was $70 per acre. That is where they started The Farm, which the Wall Street Journal would come to dub, "the General Motors of American Communes."'

« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 10:22:31 am by Two Tenners » Report Spam   Logged

"When the righteous become many, the people rejoice; but when anyone wicked bears rule, the people sigh".
— Prov 29:2
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